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13 March 2008 @ 10:06 pm
Attention slashers!  
I've got a question for you gals. This evening I was chatting with a friend about het vs. slash, and something that came up in the course of conversation was, assuming (and this is a big assumption) there's a fairly large contingent of people that identify as heterosexual women in the fandom, what is more attractive to you about slash than het? There are many factors to take into account, I'm sure, behind one's preferences since fic really is a form of wish and fantasy fulfillment, but I have noticed that some slash fans are pretty vehmently against het, especially Spuffy. What accounts for this? I'd really love to hear your personal thoughts. And, if you're a writer, is there a difference between reading het vs. writing het?

Something I also am not quite clear on is what's meant by "het for slashers." I've seen this phrase thrown around before, sometimes in reference to my own work, and I want to know what makes a het story "slash-friendly?" Is it the queering of a male character, moving away from heteronormative conceptions of sexuality, introducing anal play into a fic, or none of the above? Clue a girl in, why don't ya  =) 

Also, I probably don't have a ton of slashers on my flist since I don't write it very often, so if you know someone who may be interested or "qualified" to answer these questions, send them my why! 

ETA: It occurred to me that I should slap a disclaimer and a finger wag on here before debate heats up. Lets keep this discussion clean. People have pretty strong opinions about 'ships and genre, so be respectful in your comments. No flaming or invalidating. We can all be mature adults, and that's the sort of discussion I expect. Carry on! 
The Anti-OTPsnowpuppies on March 14th, 2008 03:31 am (UTC)
I've the monster of all headaches, and I tried to give a coherent reply to your questions, which are all good, btw, but my brain is mush. So I've left it up to my flist to do it for me. Hope you don't mind that I posted a link, but I've a LOT more slashers on my flist than you do, I'm sure. ;)

I will say that I've never heard the term "het for slashers", although I will say that I find Faith to be very nearly slashy, myself. There's very little that's traditionally feminine about Faith, and that may have something to do with it. But I can't quite put my finger on it. See Headache. ;)
ClawofCat: fucktherestclawofcat on March 14th, 2008 03:49 am (UTC)
Thanks for pimping me. Much appreciated. If this post generates some intelligent conversation, than awesome. I always do love a good discussion of the meta-ish variety.

Faith's slashy in what sense? That she's like a male character or you can easily write her with women? I agree there is something masculinely crude about Faith that appeals to me, but I've only written her with the boys. Not that she wouldn't jump a chick given the chance.

You know, I think you're one of the few writers I read that writes het, slash, and femslash. You're a jack (or jill?) of all trades! I'm currently up to my eyeballs in midterms still (I get to write about fetuses and reproductive technology tonight, yay!), but I've bookmarked your week of kink entries. Hopefully I can get to them this weekend. I haven't forgotten.
(no subject) - snowpuppies on March 14th, 2008 04:01 am (UTC) (Expand)
Sevensevendeadlyfun on March 14th, 2008 03:39 am (UTC)
Well, speaking for everyone who is me, I can say that I prefer slash because I like boys. The wish/fantasy part you mentioned plays a big part in my choice of reading material. I can have het sex in real life, so why read/write about it. Oh and for future reference, Read/Write is my OTP.

Seriously, I don't like het because so much of it is wish fulfillment. A lot of it is fluffy happily ever after cotton candy wedding dress and baby fics that just...I don't know. They aren't bad, but I don't do girly in my real life. Having it in fic is terrible.

That may be another point to ponder: most of the slash writers I know personally tend to identify themselves as very masculine/tomboy in nature. They tend to hold traditional masculine, rather than traditional feminine, ideas about sex in particular and life in general. Of course now that I've said this, one hundred and one girly girl slash writers will show up to contradict me. But it may be that those of us who write slash identify more with the male gender than the female. I know I certainly do. I'd make a much better gay man than I do a straight woman.

As for Spuffy, I don't hate it. I just dislike a lot of the tropes peculiar to Spuffy fics (the white wedding fic, the torture leads to true love fic, etc...) that come with so much bashing. I'm not saying you don't see character bashing in other fics, but it seems much more prevalent (to me) in Spuffy fics. I'm not sure if it's the general heterosexual worldview or just something endemic to Spuffy HEA writers. But I see a lot of Angel bashing in Spuffy fics, as if Buffy is only ever allowed to love one person. If she loves Spike (as Spuffy writers believe) than Angel is "teh evul" and must be destroyed.

For example, Spuffy h/c seems to revolve almost exclusively around Angel/Riley either raping or torturing Spike. Buffy must not only destroy the "monsters" who hurt Woobie!Spike, but also heal her One True Love with her magical vagina. That's the sort of story that drives me nuts and the reason I avoid Spuffy in particular and het in general.

Your stories aren't like that, which is why I enjoy them. You and darklingdawns are the only two writers whose het work I enjoy. There's a definite edge to your work that keeps it far above the terrible bland sameness of most het.

I hope some of that made sense, hon!

/ramble :)
The Anti-OTPsnowpuppies on March 14th, 2008 03:46 am (UTC)
I'd make a much better gay man than I do a straight woman.

You and me, both!

Buffy must not only destroy the "monsters" who hurt Woobie!Spike, but also heal her One True Love with her magical vagina.

(no subject) - sevendeadlyfun on March 14th, 2008 03:55 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - snowpuppies on March 14th, 2008 04:05 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - eowyn_315 on March 14th, 2008 04:26 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - sevendeadlyfun on March 14th, 2008 04:39 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - clawofcat on March 14th, 2008 05:07 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - sevendeadlyfun on March 14th, 2008 05:12 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - spankspike on March 14th, 2008 06:53 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - clawofcat on March 14th, 2008 07:12 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - spankspike on March 14th, 2008 07:28 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - eowyn_315 on March 14th, 2008 01:58 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - clawofcat on March 14th, 2008 04:32 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - sevendeadlyfun on March 14th, 2008 04:57 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - clawofcat on March 14th, 2008 05:20 am (UTC) (Expand)
ladyvirgo1956 on March 14th, 2008 03:52 am (UTC)
Het or Slash. For me it is slash. The reasons are the fact that I'm just drawn to it. Now there are a lot of Slash stories I just won't read. In the end I guess it is who you would like to see in the buff and the interaction of said characters. I'm a big Xangel fan followed closly by Spander. Spangel it depends on how well the stories are written before I read them. The writer has a lot to do with this. I write Yaoi a form of Slash in the Anime universe. And for me it comes down to one thing how well it is written.

Het I have started recently being drawn to one particular pairing Spara. I have always liked her character and it didn't feel right with her being with Willow. As for Spuffy I just do not like this couple. Buffy has always seemed to think she could play the field without consequences. First there was Angel which was a disater. Then two brief affairs before Riley which ended up a full blown mess. Her relationship with Spike had always seemed one sided. Where he looved her she didn't. She just used him then the rape happened. That was when he went and got a soul just for her. When he gets back she uses him again and throws him away. Him and Drusilla where great together. I don't read Het as a rule but if the story is good enough I will read it. I hope this helps.
ClawofCat: CoC Taraclawofcat on March 16th, 2008 10:47 pm (UTC)
"In the end I guess it is who you would like to see in the buff and the interaction of said characters."

So true. My reading is pretty selective as it is, but not just anything will do. As much as someone might like any given genre, there will certainly be stories of quality and ones that just fall way short. And while I have been known to write Spuffy (my last fic with them was 6 months ago though *g*) and read it, I feel as though I'm most particular about which writer's I'll read on that front. If I'm going out of genre and want some slash, there are a few tried and true authors I'll read based on my enjoyment of their het stories, like shapinglight. Beyond that, I usually dabble based on recs. I'm most adventuresome when it comes to non-Spuffy het pairings. I'll try anything, since you never know what gem you might fall across. Te back button is only a click away.

If you do read out of genre, like het, what factors make you give it a chance? The author, the plot summary, the pairing, something else? Oh, and if you like Spara, I'll shamelessly self pimp and suggest you read my Spara ficlet "Tea for Two." It's PG, so you won't even have to wade through any het sex =D


Thanks for dropping by to comment!

Edited at 2008-03-16 10:48 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - ladyvirgo1956 on March 16th, 2008 11:09 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - clawofcat on March 16th, 2008 11:19 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dreamsofspike on March 17th, 2008 02:17 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - clawofcat on March 17th, 2008 04:30 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dreamsofspike on March 17th, 2008 03:37 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Janet Lynn: ben and ronnie by lit_galstrickens_girl on March 14th, 2008 04:11 am (UTC)
I have to agree with sevendeadlyfun on several points. For me, the wish fulfillment/fantasy element is a big part of it because it is something that I will never be able to personally experience. Plus, I just think pretty boys sexing it up together is hot. If one pretty boy is good, two (or more) are better. *g*

Also, I think it's a way to take the characters we love in a direction they never could have taken in the show.

I'm not against het, I've written and read quite a bit of it, but I'm not a fan of Spuffy. That's due more to the way the relationship was handled in the show other than how people write it. Watching "Once More With Feeling", I was yelling "Kiss him! Kiss him!" But then the rest of the show killed the pairing for me forever. I just don't have any desire to see their relationship continue.

I've never heard the term "het for slashers" so I really can't comment on that, but to me it seems like they're saying, "Let's make some straight porn for gay men". *giggles*

Anyway, I hope that helped some.

Btw, I'm here by way of snowpuppies and her request. She's my hero. *g*
The Anti-OTP: btvs: Amber prettysnowpuppies on March 14th, 2008 05:42 am (UTC)
(no subject) - clawofcat on March 16th, 2008 11:00 pm (UTC) (Expand)
tabaqui: goldslashtabaqui on March 14th, 2008 04:16 am (UTC)
Saw the link in snowpuppies lj and thought i'd pop over.

I identify as bisexual, and have had 'ships with other women. But i'm married to a man, and have been for 23 years.

I don't read het - or write it, as a rule - because to me it's *boring*. Boring, boring, boring. I live the het life - i don't need to read about it. It's crammed down my throat willy-nilly in almost every tv show or movie, almost every book and...god.
Gets so fucking dull.

The hetronormative crap gets old, too. Married! Babies! If he looks at a Playboy, she has a breakdown! If she gains ten pounds, he boffs his secretary! *gag*
No thank you.

Not that m/m or f/f couples don't do jealousy or sleep around. But the m/m, in particular, energy and dynamic is almost *never* explored in popular culture, and when it is, it's usually done in such a way that makes me just....tired.
The gay couple is the Special!Message!of the Week! or is the Tragic!Catalyst!to the Very!Special!Episode or WTFever.
OR the gay couple is having to defend themselves, *prove* themselves, just... Jayzus.

I read slash - pretty much exclusively m/m slash - because i'm sick of the lame 'slash' that pop culture churns out. I don't even care so much for 'first time' stories - i prefer established couples where their orientation or partnership is *not* the focus and the theme, but *part* of them.

I read and write Wincest, as well, in the Supernatural fandom, because the emotions and issues of *that* pairing are a million times more interesting than a story about Dean hooking up with a Very!Special!Victim of the Week! or Sam staying and marrying Jess.

When i was a kid, i hooked up the boys all the time - i wanted Colin and Dickon to hook up, i wanted the Three Musketeers to stay together, I wanted Bastion and the little dark-haired boy to live happily ever after instead of the Princess in 'Neverending Story'. I used to force myself to write female characters and m/f pairings because i thought i was 'betraying' my woman-hood or something if i just wrote guys but now - fuck it.
I *want* to write guys, i want to read about them. There's enough het out there to last a lifetime, i want something different.
ClawofCat: spangelclawofcat on March 16th, 2008 11:15 pm (UTC)
Hey, thanks for dropping in and contributing to the convo. A lot of ya'll have mentioned that you lead the het life, so why read about? My personal answer is because I identify with it. It feels real to me. I will never be a gay man and will never fully understand the issues surrounding what it is to be one in our culture. That's not my reality. For those that have read my work, I tend to write very tight female POVs. Even in pairing fics, it is often written or narrated from the woman's perspective because I feel as though I understand and know the processes and thoughts that might go through her head. Except for Spike, who's sort of queer and stands on his own, I have a difficult time digging around the noggins of male characters.

A friend of mine, who writes het but identifies as a lesbian, once told me that she doesn't read much male slash because it's not slashy enough. By that she meant that fandom often doesn't realistically delve into what it means to be gay and the social realities of that. Sure, we can chalk up Spike and Angel fucking because they're vamps and fuck everything, but what about the baggage, what about growing up during time periods where it wasn't ok to be gay? Has that never impacted them?

I don't necessarily agree with her on that front, but I thought it was an interesting perspective to throw out there. And, if you have any recs that you think do meet her slashy requirements, lemme know. She prefers Spangel =)
(no subject) - tabaqui on March 16th, 2008 11:42 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - clawofcat on March 17th, 2008 12:00 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - tabaqui on March 17th, 2008 12:17 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - clawofcat on March 17th, 2008 12:50 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - tabaqui on March 17th, 2008 01:15 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - clawofcat on March 17th, 2008 05:43 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - tabaqui on March 17th, 2008 06:06 am (UTC) (Expand)
tabaqui: s&droadtabaqui on March 14th, 2008 04:20 am (UTC)
Oh, and - i wanted to add... I don't imagine myself as one of the boys. I don't want to have sex with *any* of them. I don't want to meet the actors, i don't want to be in a threesome. Pretty boys having hot sex is awesome - no need for me to be in there at *all*.

And - i dislike Spuffy intensely. The relationship on the show was toxic and the writes - and Joss - pretty much destroyed any love i had for *any*body by year seven. I would have *loved* to have seen Spike and Buffy being partners, fighting off the hordes and being friends, as they managed to do a couple of times. But lovers? Never. It was a trainwreck, and it mostly revolved around Spike being humiliated or rejected, so ....no.

That's just me, of course. :)

No clue what 'het for slashers' is, sorry.
playfuldancerplayfuldancer on March 14th, 2008 04:27 am (UTC)
For me it's not a matter of het or slash it's really just how well the scene/story is written. If the author writes it so that it makes sense and flows then it really doesn't matter to me who's having sex with who - as long as it works in the context of the story, and it's hot (dirty) sex :P
ClawofCat: another collisionclawofcat on March 16th, 2008 11:26 pm (UTC)
lol, oh yes. We all love the hot, dirty sex. So if you're not particular about pairing, then how do you decide what you'll read?

And thanks for popping by and leaving a comment. I don't think we've had the pleasure before. Getting to know my flist a little better always brings a smile to my face =)
(no subject) - playfuldancer on March 18th, 2008 05:03 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - clawofcat on March 18th, 2008 07:12 am (UTC) (Expand)
Snow: Minesweptawaybayou on March 14th, 2008 04:49 am (UTC)

tabaqui sent me here. I write slash *now*, but i came from het!fic. i didn't even really know that slash, fem or male, existed until i discovered teh!intarwebs back in the long ago first computer days. Although i'd always written, sheesh, i have notebooks full of scribbles and one completed 'novel'.

i joined the 'net in the midst of my X~men obsession and as that slowly changed to Ats, i found Kita's Slashing the Angel website and yeah, after devouring such quality fic ... i had to try it. Het had become too easy, too *normal* and playing with the idea of Angel boinking other male vampires and humans? duuuuuuuuuude. it was just too tempting and way too pretty to deny.

i'd love to feel as accomplished at femslash, but other than one fic, i just haven't felt the same inspiration. not that i don't simply adore reading well written f/f fics. Just as i do m/m and het. There are some pairings that i don't get into, but mostly, for me, it's all about the writing. And if it takes me there, you know?

And i have found that when die hard het writers dabble in slash, the results are generally incredible. The same for when slash!fic writers play around with het ... it's usually beyond compare. i love it when writers take a chance and play in areas that are out of their comfort zones.

I am a heterosexual female, middle~age, divorced with teenagers/young adult children. (all of whom know about my interests/hobbies and one of them writes slash/gen in her own fandoms.)

Sevensevendeadlyfun on March 14th, 2008 05:03 am (UTC)
Slashing the Angel. I absolutely love that site. Best introduction to slash fic ever.
(no subject) - sweptawaybayou on March 14th, 2008 05:28 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - clawofcat on March 16th, 2008 11:45 pm (UTC) (Expand)
missus_grace: bookspikemissus_grace on March 14th, 2008 06:59 am (UTC)
Ooh! Good question! I'll try to give a good answer.

I started out in fandom as an exclusively Spuffy shipper. Yeah, most of the peeps here are groaning, but I thought they were HAWT and I wrote/sought out fics that gave them a happier ending then they got in the show.

Then one fateful day, out of curiosity or something, I found a Spander story and I was hooked. Then along came Spangel. And don't even get me started on Spilliam. As a het, married female teh man!sex gets my blood pumping - I think because I'm pretty vanilla so m/m sex is kinky to me. Femslash does nothing for me and I avoid it like the plague.

And it seems like out of all my OTPs, Xander treats Spike the best (in fandom) and that's what really turns me on; Spike being treated with respect and love.
The Anti-OTPsnowpuppies on March 16th, 2008 05:07 am (UTC)
I started out in fandom as an exclusively Spuffy shipper. Yeah, most of the peeps here are groaning,

In my experience, a lot of slashers started out this way. Wonder if there's a connection there -- something about the spuffy 'ship that made them...jump ship. ;) :P
(no subject) - clawofcat on March 17th, 2008 12:11 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - missus_grace on March 18th, 2008 12:21 am (UTC) (Expand)
ash_carpenterash_carpenter on March 14th, 2008 10:03 am (UTC)
Okay, so I feel inclined to put my 2 cents' worth in, even though I'm pretty sure that I have nothing of any use to say at all!

(First off, nooooooo clue what "het for slashers" is, sorry!)

I stumbled into the fandom kinda by accident. I loved BtVS and AtS and suddenly one day I was like, "Huh...Spike and Angel together would be hot." I've always had a 'kink' for m/m - I like boys kissing in movies blah blah. I have no idea why. All I can think is that it's just one of those things that turn me on *shrugs* like men being turned on by lesbians. Although I do agree with some of the points above that maybe it's a fantasy fulfilment because I can never experience it.

Anyway, I randomly googled to see if anyone else liked the idea of Spike and Angel together and...OMG!!!! The wonderful world of slash began...I always just wrote general stories to amuse myself before that point. Incidentally, if there happened to be any sex in the stories, it was het.

So I came into the fandom as some kind of outlet I guess for my slashy desires! I like pretty boys and I like the thought of pretty boys together. Also, I happen to like sex stories that are rough, and you tend to get that more with slash. You also tend to get a wider range of kinks, at least kinks that are explored /regularly/. (Obviously, sweeping generalisation there).

I don't hate het! It just doesn't tend to do very much for me. I'd much rather be doing it than reading it! Some well-written het definitely does work for me, especially if it happens to hit my kink buttons. Unfortunately, I haven't found much het that does that, which is why I stick to slash.

I do write het occasionally (heh - as you know), but I just don't /enjoy/ writing it as much as slash - I also for some reason have trouble with descriptions in het that I don't have with slash. *shrugs again*

See, I told you that wasn't helpful! Basically, I am a totally straight girl, not a tomboy, but I do tend to like sex a bit more 'grrrrr' than most girls I know. For no fathomable reason, I like the idea of men together - and have done for as long as I can remember. And this fandom offers some really good stories that just /work/ for me - it helps that I like vampires too!!! *g*

*hugs you for inspiring something like meta*
ClawofCat: gropeclawofcat on March 17th, 2008 12:24 am (UTC)
Yay! I'm glad you dropped by, Ash. Was hoping you'd have a thing or two to share. Looks like you were one of the few that didn't come from het. Knew what you wanted right from the start!

"I happen to like sex stories that are rough, and you tend to get that more with slash. You also tend to get a wider range of kinks, at least kinks that are explored regularly"
I really wonder about that. I don't like sweet, cuddly sex, and that's not usually what I write either. You're definately right about the kink thing. I look around myself and think "jeez, am I like the only person here writing het fisting and rimming? wtf, dudes?" This might be a follow up topic for the het fans on my flist. They've got some 'splainin to do!

*whispers* I love your het...

Thanks for contributing and getting my brain going, sweetie! It's always nice when we get to chat a bit =)
ldyavalonldyavalon on March 14th, 2008 12:04 pm (UTC)
I think my kink is more of a well written story. I'm of the opinion that if a story is well written, the pairing is not unimportant, but perhaps I won't be as ready to say "Oh, no, I don't read that.

I like to read. In fact, now that I'm not working, I read all day. So I read some really good fic, and sometimes I read some really bad fic (IMHO). I prefer Spuffy, but if an author I like posts something like "You've got to read this" I'll respect his/her opinion and go read it. Independent of the pairing.
ClawofCat: glancesclawofcat on March 17th, 2008 12:31 am (UTC)
Hi, hun! Glad you swung by to share your thoughts. It seems like those that read vs. those that write are less interested in the pairings, and more interested in the quality of the story. That's a semi-unexpected observation, but I guess it would be that way for writers. They're trying to carve a nitch out for themselves, so "specializing" in a pairing or genre is a way to go.

I've been a bit adrift lately. No longer really a Spuffy writer, I've just been jumping around and taking me where the plot bunnies lead. It can be discouraging because I do wonder "who's my readership now?" So many people that originally friended me did so because of my Spuffy writing, and I doubt they're following my other work.

On an unrelated note, I was considering setting a fic I might write in Spain. If I ever have any questions about the local flavor/culture, can I hit you up?
(no subject) - ldyavalon on March 17th, 2008 02:30 am (UTC) (Expand)
Lilylavastar on March 15th, 2008 01:00 am (UTC)
I've been pointed this way by snowpuppies and while I'm a lesbian figured that I could contribute to the discussion, or whatever. I don't have the brain right now to think up a coherent response and read all the other comments, so sorry if I repeat anything. First off, never heard of 'het for slashers', but for me it would be het written in a slashy style, I guess. I don't know that slash really has a style, I just know that there's definitely a difference between slash and het for me, and that I am definitely waaaay pro-slash. I do like Spuffy and Spaith, but that's mostly because I <3 Spike/Anyone, cause I <3 Spike in general. He's like my man crush or something. Anyways...right. Answering question. I have rambling issues. I don't read slash out of fantasy but more out of a preference for guys with guys over guys with girls. Men just interest me more when they're gay. For one thing, it means they don't have any sexual interest in me, which is nice, but also (and I'm really not a scary man-hater, if this comes out that way) in general I like gay men more than straight men in general, like personality-wise. I'm basically waiting for a straight male who defies my totally low expectations, but until that happens I mostly avoid them. So what I'm trying to say is that I like slash because I like my characters more as gay. Even if their personality doesn't change at all, I have a sort of higher like of them if they're gay. And I like femslash because I can relate to it, and, duh, it's awesome. So in short, I'm not like 'death to het', but as a general sort of rule I prefer teh gay. It doesn't hurt that my total, all time bestest OTP is Willow/Tara. Sorry if this was too long-winded and not very helpful/coherent, I'm just kind of typin' as I think.
ClawofCat: Spaith Make Meclawofcat on March 17th, 2008 12:57 am (UTC)
Thanks for dropping by and adding your two cents. Yeah, Spike/Anyone is made of win. He's totally my man crush and Faith is totally my girl crush. Which works since they're sort of similar characters.

I think it's fair to say that in canon Spike and Angel generally live heterosexual lifestyles and generally sleep with women. Did that aspect or "straightness" ever put you off to them on the show if you prefer gay men? Or does that distinction only make a difference when you're reading fic?
(no subject) - lavastar on March 17th, 2008 09:52 pm (UTC) (Expand)
kitty_poker1kitty_poker1 on March 15th, 2008 04:51 am (UTC)
Hi, hon. snowpuppies sent me here, and what an interesting discussion it is. I'll declare an interest here: I'm a straight, very happily married woman in my 50's who has no problem whatsoever with anyone choosing who they have sex with, as long as it's not children or animals and is consensual. I'm also a dedicated slasher, both writer and reader.

You've got it right when you say slash is wish fulfilment. Women, straight or gay or in between, like gay men. It's a given. They're not a threat, they often are more open than straight men (though that's a stereotype and not always the case). I like reading about men having sex. A particular kink is men who are not gay having sex together, and developing a relationship, because they fall for the personality and the outer shell is unimportant.

I have no idea of the meaning of "het for slashers". For me, slash is about men opening themselves to emotions that we usually ascribe to women.

I haven't read het for many years, apart from Snowy's, and never would again except that she's my b/f so I do read hers. *g* There's an exoticism about slash that I find irresistible. I can't do that, being penis-free.

I started with Spuffy and still have no problem with it, but once I found slash, there was no looking back. I don't know how to describe it, except that I love the boys together, whether it be Spander or McShep, and I'll never go back to het. Het is my life, and very nice it is, but I want something different when I read. I know there are several gay and bi women on my flist, and on yours, who will have different reasons but, hey, variety is the spice of life. *hugs*
ClawofCat: spangelclawofcat on March 17th, 2008 01:07 am (UTC)
Bless, Snowy's heart. I think without her there wouldn't even be a discussion. Glad you dropped by to contribute and share your thoughts.

A particular kink is men who are not gay having sex together
Looks like you've come to the right fandom then! For everyone's squabbling over whether Spike and Angel actually boinked in canon, it's safe to say that the show portrayed them as generally leading heterosexual lifestyles and sleeping and engaging in intimate relationships with women. They're def not gay men, but it takes no convincing on my part to see that they did have an intense relationship and they probably did carry on together at some point in the time they've known each other.
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ClawofCat: loaded gunclawofcat on March 17th, 2008 05:30 am (UTC)
Hi there! Thanks for stopping by and throwing in your two cents. I always see your pretty sketches on nekid_spike, but we've never really "talked."

As you mention, Spuffy does seem to lend itself to soppy romance. Tell you the truth, i've never read any of that. I like my angst just fine, I don't want it to be easy, and happily ever afters are over-rated. Give me gritty, hard Spuffy any day =)

It IS taboo to even think about it and part of the appeal is breaking the taboo.
You've hit on something that Ash also mentioned - that slash seems to lend itself more to kink. I came into this fandom as a kink writer, and while I've expanded my repertoire into the non NC-17 variety, I still do love putting out a good, filthy fic. Why aren't we getting more rimming, fisting, BDSM het fics? I've no clue, cause goddamnit, I like those and would love to know where they're hiding. Perhaps a follow up post on het and kink is in store?

I like seeing them evolve through suffering and sensuality and sexuality...
Wow... I don't think I've ever seen another writer express a preference for my very same philosophy when it comes to fic writing. Hm, you and I might have more in common than meet the eye. Will have to snoop around your fics, in addition to the art. Is it just slash or do you have a bit of het too?
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(no subject) - clawofcat on March 17th, 2008 06:19 am (UTC) (Expand)
Shapinglightshapinglight on March 20th, 2008 09:24 pm (UTC)
Hi, coming very late to this discussion and at totally the wrong time, because I can't currently read it.

But I will come back, both to this post and your one about kink when I have the chance.

Very interesting.
ClawofCat: yayclawofcat on March 20th, 2008 10:52 pm (UTC)
It's never too late! I'd like to keep this thing alive for as long as people have something to say. That's the best thing about inviting meta discussion.

And I'm looking forward to your opinion. When I posted these I figured you might have something interesting to say as a kink writer of slash (and sometimes het). And def read the discussion. There were some very insightful things mentioned. I was way impressed.
(no subject) - shapinglight on March 22nd, 2008 12:31 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shapinglight on March 25th, 2008 03:36 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - clawofcat on March 26th, 2008 05:39 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shapinglight on March 30th, 2008 11:04 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - clawofcat on March 31st, 2008 01:58 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shapinglight on March 31st, 2008 09:55 pm (UTC) (Expand)