I've the monster of all headaches, and I tried to give a coherent reply to your questions, which are all good, btw, but my brain is mush. So I've left it up to my flist to do it for me. Hope you don't mind that I posted a link, but I've a LOT more slashers on my flist than you do, I'm sure. ;)

I will say that I've never heard the term "het for slashers", although I will say that I find Faith to be very nearly slashy, myself. There's very little that's traditionally feminine about Faith, and that may have something to do with it. But I can't quite put my finger on it. See Headache. ;)

Thanks for pimping me. Much appreciated. If this post generates some intelligent conversation, than awesome. I always do love a good discussion of the meta-ish variety.

Faith's slashy in what sense? That she's like a male character or you can easily write her with women? I agree there is something masculinely crude about Faith that appeals to me, but I've only written her with the boys. Not that she wouldn't jump a chick given the chance.

You know, I think you're one of the few writers I read that writes het, slash, and femslash. You're a jack (or jill?) of all trades! I'm currently up to my eyeballs in midterms still (I get to write about fetuses and reproductive technology tonight, yay!), but I've bookmarked your week of kink entries. Hopefully I can get to them this weekend. I haven't forgotten.

Well, speaking for everyone who is me, I can say that I prefer slash because I like boys. The wish/fantasy part you mentioned plays a big part in my choice of reading material. I can have het sex in real life, so why read/write about it. Oh and for future reference, Read/Write is my OTP.

Seriously, I don't like het because so much of it is wish fulfillment. A lot of it is fluffy happily ever after cotton candy wedding dress and baby fics that just...I don't know. They aren't bad, but I don't do girly in my real life. Having it in fic is terrible.

That may be another point to ponder: most of the slash writers I know personally tend to identify themselves as very masculine/tomboy in nature. They tend to hold traditional masculine, rather than traditional feminine, ideas about sex in particular and life in general. Of course now that I've said this, one hundred and one girly girl slash writers will show up to contradict me. But it may be that those of us who write slash identify more with the male gender than the female. I know I certainly do. I'd make a much better gay man than I do a straight woman.

As for Spuffy, I don't hate it. I just dislike a lot of the tropes peculiar to Spuffy fics (the white wedding fic, the torture leads to true love fic, etc...) that come with so much bashing. I'm not saying you don't see character bashing in other fics, but it seems much more prevalent (to me) in Spuffy fics. I'm not sure if it's the general heterosexual worldview or just something endemic to Spuffy HEA writers. But I see a lot of Angel bashing in Spuffy fics, as if Buffy is only ever allowed to love one person. If she loves Spike (as Spuffy writers believe) than Angel is "teh evul" and must be destroyed.

For example, Spuffy h/c seems to revolve almost exclusively around Angel/Riley either raping or torturing Spike. Buffy must not only destroy the "monsters" who hurt Woobie!Spike, but also heal her One True Love with her magical vagina. That's the sort of story that drives me nuts and the reason I avoid Spuffy in particular and het in general.

Your stories aren't like that, which is why I enjoy them. You and darklingdawns are the only two writers whose het work I enjoy. There's a definite edge to your work that keeps it far above the terrible bland sameness of most het.

I hope some of that made sense, hon!

/ramble :)

I'd make a much better gay man than I do a straight woman.

You and me, both!


Buffy must not only destroy the "monsters" who hurt Woobie!Spike, but also heal her One True Love with her magical vagina.

*dies*

That's an intriguing perspective, and I hope you don't mind if I thoroughly dissect it. :)

I prefer slash because I like boys... I can have het sex in real life, so why read/write about it.

See, I like boys, too... but I don't particularly like them together. I guess it's akin to why guys think two girls together is hot, which I also don't totally understand.

As to why read/write about something you can do in real life... well, that's exactly why I read/write about it! I write het because I understand how it works, how it feels. I could never write slash because I don't really know how the male body responds internally - I don't know what it feels like to be a guy having sex, and I need that reference point to make the scene believable. With het, I know the inner workings of the body of at least one of the characters. (Granted, by that argument, I should feel even more comfortable writing femslash, but I refer you back to my first point about not finding it hot, lol.) And I read het for the same reason - I can get a full sensory perception of the scene in a way I can't with slash. I'm just not into it as much because I can't experience it.

A lot of it is fluffy happily ever after cotton candy wedding dress and baby fics that just...I don't know.

That sounds like you're saying it's not the sex that turns you on or off, it's the plots that turn you away from a fic (which would partially answer Cat's question about what makes het fic appeal to slashers - if the plot's decent, the pairing's less important). I'd also point out that I don't think that perception is accurate. In my experience as a reader, the tropes you mentioned don't represent a majority of the good het fic out there - considering that I read predominantly het, and pretty much avoid cotton candy and woobie!Spike, and I've yet to run out of things to read. I think maybe slashers have a misconception of het and think that it's all bad, when really I think het and slash have equal proportions of good and bad fic.

Oh and for future reference, Read/Write is my OTP.
*blinks* Can I just say, I heart you like whoa? Maybe, maybe I'm forming an idea. If I write your OTP, can I weasel a banner out of you?

A lot of it is fluffy happily ever after cotton candy wedding dress and baby fics
This is interesting. So you're saying that it has little to do with the boy/girl parts, and more to do with the themes and characterizations that you've found to be prevelant in het? Hm. I find nothing compelling in those very fluffy fics that you just described. I don't read them. I never have. And yet there's a world of het out there that does deal with, perhaps, more mature themes, stays truer to canon characterization, and delves into compelling elements in the character's lives, whether some internal or external challenge. This is all assuming there is a plot to said fic, though. Gotta love those PWPs.

So then my follow up question is this: have your early experiences being "burned" or disappointed by het forever shaped your opinion of the genre? This is speculation, but had you avoided the fluffy or the distasteful damsel, h/c, or character-bashing plotlines, would you feel more positive about it?

There are a couple of reasons why I'm fairly selective about what slash I'll read, but to mirror your own point above, I've found plots to often be silly. I get the sense sometimes that the writer is looking to get the characters to fuck as quicky as possible without considering characterization, that there's an element of camp to it, and that Spike is often demoralized, feminized, or generally damselfied (yay, new word!) to fit into the writers particular notions or kink for dom!Angel/whomever and sub!Spike. Certainly, some writers do it and do it well, but where the hell is the nuance? Clearly, you get crappy writing in either het or slash, so what's the deciding factor on which side snags you?

those of us who write slash identify more with the male gender than the female.
Great insight. Perhaps if I knew more slashers better, this would be apparent to me.

Thanks for taking the time to give such an awesome, articulate response M. I love your brain. It's shiny. Also, for some seriously gritty het, no one does it like only_passenger. If you're ever feeling adventurous, try some of her rarer pairings, like Angel/Dawn. *hugs*

Het or Slash. For me it is slash. The reasons are the fact that I'm just drawn to it. Now there are a lot of Slash stories I just won't read. In the end I guess it is who you would like to see in the buff and the interaction of said characters. I'm a big Xangel fan followed closly by Spander. Spangel it depends on how well the stories are written before I read them. The writer has a lot to do with this. I write Yaoi a form of Slash in the Anime universe. And for me it comes down to one thing how well it is written.

Het I have started recently being drawn to one particular pairing Spara. I have always liked her character and it didn't feel right with her being with Willow. As for Spuffy I just do not like this couple. Buffy has always seemed to think she could play the field without consequences. First there was Angel which was a disater. Then two brief affairs before Riley which ended up a full blown mess. Her relationship with Spike had always seemed one sided. Where he looved her she didn't. She just used him then the rape happened. That was when he went and got a soul just for her. When he gets back she uses him again and throws him away. Him and Drusilla where great together. I don't read Het as a rule but if the story is good enough I will read it. I hope this helps.

"In the end I guess it is who you would like to see in the buff and the interaction of said characters."

So true. My reading is pretty selective as it is, but not just anything will do. As much as someone might like any given genre, there will certainly be stories of quality and ones that just fall way short. And while I have been known to write Spuffy (my last fic with them was 6 months ago though *g*) and read it, I feel as though I'm most particular about which writer's I'll read on that front. If I'm going out of genre and want some slash, there are a few tried and true authors I'll read based on my enjoyment of their het stories, like shapinglight. Beyond that, I usually dabble based on recs. I'm most adventuresome when it comes to non-Spuffy het pairings. I'll try anything, since you never know what gem you might fall across. Te back button is only a click away.

If you do read out of genre, like het, what factors make you give it a chance? The author, the plot summary, the pairing, something else? Oh, and if you like Spara, I'll shamelessly self pimp and suggest you read my Spara ficlet "Tea for Two." It's PG, so you won't even have to wade through any het sex =D

http://clawofcat.livejournal.com/19162.html

Thanks for dropping by to comment!

Edited at 2008-03-16 10:48 pm (UTC)

I have to agree with sevendeadlyfun on several points. For me, the wish fulfillment/fantasy element is a big part of it because it is something that I will never be able to personally experience. Plus, I just think pretty boys sexing it up together is hot. If one pretty boy is good, two (or more) are better. *g*

Also, I think it's a way to take the characters we love in a direction they never could have taken in the show.

I'm not against het, I've written and read quite a bit of it, but I'm not a fan of Spuffy. That's due more to the way the relationship was handled in the show other than how people write it. Watching "Once More With Feeling", I was yelling "Kiss him! Kiss him!" But then the rest of the show killed the pairing for me forever. I just don't have any desire to see their relationship continue.

I've never heard the term "het for slashers" so I really can't comment on that, but to me it seems like they're saying, "Let's make some straight porn for gay men". *giggles*

Anyway, I hope that helped some.

Btw, I'm here by way of snowpuppies and her request. She's my hero. *g*

*blushes*

"it's a way to take the characters we love in a direction they never could have taken in the show."
So then, does that mean there are more AUs in slash than there are in het because there were far more het relationships in canon? I'm a really bad judge of this because I generally don't read AUs or ARs. I like my characters as they were in canon, so all human stories or ones that dramatically veer off have less of an appeal to me. But if you have any insights, do share!

"Let's make some straight porn for gay men".
Have you ever heard of Buck Angel? He's a f2m transsexual porn star, and he markets himself as "the dude with the pussy." I'm a journalist and once interviewed him for an article having to do with trans media after TransAmerica came out, and he told me that his biggest consumer market is gay men who get to see/experience "straight sex." Talk about wish fulfillment! However, I don't think het for slashers is a call for weird vamp transex porn, but you never know... *g*

Thanks so much for dropping by and commenting. Snowy is a doll. I love her lots. We've got this whole mutual appreciation society going and everything.

Saw the link in snowpuppies lj and thought i'd pop over.
*waves*

I identify as bisexual, and have had 'ships with other women. But i'm married to a man, and have been for 23 years.

I don't read het - or write it, as a rule - because to me it's *boring*. Boring, boring, boring. I live the het life - i don't need to read about it. It's crammed down my throat willy-nilly in almost every tv show or movie, almost every book and...god.
Gets so fucking dull.

The hetronormative crap gets old, too. Married! Babies! If he looks at a Playboy, she has a breakdown! If she gains ten pounds, he boffs his secretary! *gag*
No thank you.

Not that m/m or f/f couples don't do jealousy or sleep around. But the m/m, in particular, energy and dynamic is almost *never* explored in popular culture, and when it is, it's usually done in such a way that makes me just....tired.
The gay couple is the Special!Message!of the Week! or is the Tragic!Catalyst!to the Very!Special!Episode or WTFever.
OR the gay couple is having to defend themselves, *prove* themselves, just... Jayzus.

I read slash - pretty much exclusively m/m slash - because i'm sick of the lame 'slash' that pop culture churns out. I don't even care so much for 'first time' stories - i prefer established couples where their orientation or partnership is *not* the focus and the theme, but *part* of them.

I read and write Wincest, as well, in the Supernatural fandom, because the emotions and issues of *that* pairing are a million times more interesting than a story about Dean hooking up with a Very!Special!Victim of the Week! or Sam staying and marrying Jess.

When i was a kid, i hooked up the boys all the time - i wanted Colin and Dickon to hook up, i wanted the Three Musketeers to stay together, I wanted Bastion and the little dark-haired boy to live happily ever after instead of the Princess in 'Neverending Story'. I used to force myself to write female characters and m/f pairings because i thought i was 'betraying' my woman-hood or something if i just wrote guys but now - fuck it.
I *want* to write guys, i want to read about them. There's enough het out there to last a lifetime, i want something different.
:)

Hey, thanks for dropping in and contributing to the convo. A lot of ya'll have mentioned that you lead the het life, so why read about? My personal answer is because I identify with it. It feels real to me. I will never be a gay man and will never fully understand the issues surrounding what it is to be one in our culture. That's not my reality. For those that have read my work, I tend to write very tight female POVs. Even in pairing fics, it is often written or narrated from the woman's perspective because I feel as though I understand and know the processes and thoughts that might go through her head. Except for Spike, who's sort of queer and stands on his own, I have a difficult time digging around the noggins of male characters.

A friend of mine, who writes het but identifies as a lesbian, once told me that she doesn't read much male slash because it's not slashy enough. By that she meant that fandom often doesn't realistically delve into what it means to be gay and the social realities of that. Sure, we can chalk up Spike and Angel fucking because they're vamps and fuck everything, but what about the baggage, what about growing up during time periods where it wasn't ok to be gay? Has that never impacted them?

I don't necessarily agree with her on that front, but I thought it was an interesting perspective to throw out there. And, if you have any recs that you think do meet her slashy requirements, lemme know. She prefers Spangel =)

Oh, and - i wanted to add... I don't imagine myself as one of the boys. I don't want to have sex with *any* of them. I don't want to meet the actors, i don't want to be in a threesome. Pretty boys having hot sex is awesome - no need for me to be in there at *all*.

And - i dislike Spuffy intensely. The relationship on the show was toxic and the writes - and Joss - pretty much destroyed any love i had for *any*body by year seven. I would have *loved* to have seen Spike and Buffy being partners, fighting off the hordes and being friends, as they managed to do a couple of times. But lovers? Never. It was a trainwreck, and it mostly revolved around Spike being humiliated or rejected, so ....no.

That's just me, of course. :)

No clue what 'het for slashers' is, sorry.

For me it's not a matter of het or slash it's really just how well the scene/story is written. If the author writes it so that it makes sense and flows then it really doesn't matter to me who's having sex with who - as long as it works in the context of the story, and it's hot (dirty) sex :P

lol, oh yes. We all love the hot, dirty sex. So if you're not particular about pairing, then how do you decide what you'll read?

And thanks for popping by and leaving a comment. I don't think we've had the pleasure before. Getting to know my flist a little better always brings a smile to my face =)

*waves*

tabaqui sent me here. I write slash *now*, but i came from het!fic. i didn't even really know that slash, fem or male, existed until i discovered teh!intarwebs back in the long ago first computer days. Although i'd always written, sheesh, i have notebooks full of scribbles and one completed 'novel'.

i joined the 'net in the midst of my X~men obsession and as that slowly changed to Ats, i found Kita's Slashing the Angel website and yeah, after devouring such quality fic ... i had to try it. Het had become too easy, too *normal* and playing with the idea of Angel boinking other male vampires and humans? duuuuuuuuuude. it was just too tempting and way too pretty to deny.

i'd love to feel as accomplished at femslash, but other than one fic, i just haven't felt the same inspiration. not that i don't simply adore reading well written f/f fics. Just as i do m/m and het. There are some pairings that i don't get into, but mostly, for me, it's all about the writing. And if it takes me there, you know?

And i have found that when die hard het writers dabble in slash, the results are generally incredible. The same for when slash!fic writers play around with het ... it's usually beyond compare. i love it when writers take a chance and play in areas that are out of their comfort zones.

I am a heterosexual female, middle~age, divorced with teenagers/young adult children. (all of whom know about my interests/hobbies and one of them writes slash/gen in her own fandoms.)

:)

Slashing the Angel. I absolutely love that site. Best introduction to slash fic ever.

Ooh! Good question! I'll try to give a good answer.

I started out in fandom as an exclusively Spuffy shipper. Yeah, most of the peeps here are groaning, but I thought they were HAWT and I wrote/sought out fics that gave them a happier ending then they got in the show.

Then one fateful day, out of curiosity or something, I found a Spander story and I was hooked. Then along came Spangel. And don't even get me started on Spilliam. As a het, married female teh man!sex gets my blood pumping - I think because I'm pretty vanilla so m/m sex is kinky to me. Femslash does nothing for me and I avoid it like the plague.

And it seems like out of all my OTPs, Xander treats Spike the best (in fandom) and that's what really turns me on; Spike being treated with respect and love.

I started out in fandom as an exclusively Spuffy shipper. Yeah, most of the peeps here are groaning,

In my experience, a lot of slashers started out this way. Wonder if there's a connection there -- something about the spuffy 'ship that made them...jump ship. ;) :P

Okay, so I feel inclined to put my 2 cents' worth in, even though I'm pretty sure that I have nothing of any use to say at all!

(First off, nooooooo clue what "het for slashers" is, sorry!)

I stumbled into the fandom kinda by accident. I loved BtVS and AtS and suddenly one day I was like, "Huh...Spike and Angel together would be hot." I've always had a 'kink' for m/m - I like boys kissing in movies blah blah. I have no idea why. All I can think is that it's just one of those things that turn me on *shrugs* like men being turned on by lesbians. Although I do agree with some of the points above that maybe it's a fantasy fulfilment because I can never experience it.

Anyway, I randomly googled to see if anyone else liked the idea of Spike and Angel together and...OMG!!!! The wonderful world of slash began...I always just wrote general stories to amuse myself before that point. Incidentally, if there happened to be any sex in the stories, it was het.

So I came into the fandom as some kind of outlet I guess for my slashy desires! I like pretty boys and I like the thought of pretty boys together. Also, I happen to like sex stories that are rough, and you tend to get that more with slash. You also tend to get a wider range of kinks, at least kinks that are explored /regularly/. (Obviously, sweeping generalisation there).

I don't hate het! It just doesn't tend to do very much for me. I'd much rather be doing it than reading it! Some well-written het definitely does work for me, especially if it happens to hit my kink buttons. Unfortunately, I haven't found much het that does that, which is why I stick to slash.

I do write het occasionally (heh - as you know), but I just don't /enjoy/ writing it as much as slash - I also for some reason have trouble with descriptions in het that I don't have with slash. *shrugs again*

See, I told you that wasn't helpful! Basically, I am a totally straight girl, not a tomboy, but I do tend to like sex a bit more 'grrrrr' than most girls I know. For no fathomable reason, I like the idea of men together - and have done for as long as I can remember. And this fandom offers some really good stories that just /work/ for me - it helps that I like vampires too!!! *g*

*hugs you for inspiring something like meta*

Yay! I'm glad you dropped by, Ash. Was hoping you'd have a thing or two to share. Looks like you were one of the few that didn't come from het. Knew what you wanted right from the start!

"I happen to like sex stories that are rough, and you tend to get that more with slash. You also tend to get a wider range of kinks, at least kinks that are explored regularly"
I really wonder about that. I don't like sweet, cuddly sex, and that's not usually what I write either. You're definately right about the kink thing. I look around myself and think "jeez, am I like the only person here writing het fisting and rimming? wtf, dudes?" This might be a follow up topic for the het fans on my flist. They've got some 'splainin to do!

*whispers* I love your het...

Thanks for contributing and getting my brain going, sweetie! It's always nice when we get to chat a bit =)

I think my kink is more of a well written story. I'm of the opinion that if a story is well written, the pairing is not unimportant, but perhaps I won't be as ready to say "Oh, no, I don't read that.

I like to read. In fact, now that I'm not working, I read all day. So I read some really good fic, and sometimes I read some really bad fic (IMHO). I prefer Spuffy, but if an author I like posts something like "You've got to read this" I'll respect his/her opinion and go read it. Independent of the pairing.

Hi, hun! Glad you swung by to share your thoughts. It seems like those that read vs. those that write are less interested in the pairings, and more interested in the quality of the story. That's a semi-unexpected observation, but I guess it would be that way for writers. They're trying to carve a nitch out for themselves, so "specializing" in a pairing or genre is a way to go.

I've been a bit adrift lately. No longer really a Spuffy writer, I've just been jumping around and taking me where the plot bunnies lead. It can be discouraging because I do wonder "who's my readership now?" So many people that originally friended me did so because of my Spuffy writing, and I doubt they're following my other work.

On an unrelated note, I was considering setting a fic I might write in Spain. If I ever have any questions about the local flavor/culture, can I hit you up?

I've been pointed this way by snowpuppies and while I'm a lesbian figured that I could contribute to the discussion, or whatever. I don't have the brain right now to think up a coherent response and read all the other comments, so sorry if I repeat anything. First off, never heard of 'het for slashers', but for me it would be het written in a slashy style, I guess. I don't know that slash really has a style, I just know that there's definitely a difference between slash and het for me, and that I am definitely waaaay pro-slash. I do like Spuffy and Spaith, but that's mostly because I <3 Spike/Anyone, cause I <3 Spike in general. He's like my man crush or something. Anyways...right. Answering question. I have rambling issues. I don't read slash out of fantasy but more out of a preference for guys with guys over guys with girls. Men just interest me more when they're gay. For one thing, it means they don't have any sexual interest in me, which is nice, but also (and I'm really not a scary man-hater, if this comes out that way) in general I like gay men more than straight men in general, like personality-wise. I'm basically waiting for a straight male who defies my totally low expectations, but until that happens I mostly avoid them. So what I'm trying to say is that I like slash because I like my characters more as gay. Even if their personality doesn't change at all, I have a sort of higher like of them if they're gay. And I like femslash because I can relate to it, and, duh, it's awesome. So in short, I'm not like 'death to het', but as a general sort of rule I prefer teh gay. It doesn't hurt that my total, all time bestest OTP is Willow/Tara. Sorry if this was too long-winded and not very helpful/coherent, I'm just kind of typin' as I think.

Thanks for dropping by and adding your two cents. Yeah, Spike/Anyone is made of win. He's totally my man crush and Faith is totally my girl crush. Which works since they're sort of similar characters.

I think it's fair to say that in canon Spike and Angel generally live heterosexual lifestyles and generally sleep with women. Did that aspect or "straightness" ever put you off to them on the show if you prefer gay men? Or does that distinction only make a difference when you're reading fic?

Hi, hon. snowpuppies sent me here, and what an interesting discussion it is. I'll declare an interest here: I'm a straight, very happily married woman in my 50's who has no problem whatsoever with anyone choosing who they have sex with, as long as it's not children or animals and is consensual. I'm also a dedicated slasher, both writer and reader.

You've got it right when you say slash is wish fulfilment. Women, straight or gay or in between, like gay men. It's a given. They're not a threat, they often are more open than straight men (though that's a stereotype and not always the case). I like reading about men having sex. A particular kink is men who are not gay having sex together, and developing a relationship, because they fall for the personality and the outer shell is unimportant.

I have no idea of the meaning of "het for slashers". For me, slash is about men opening themselves to emotions that we usually ascribe to women.

I haven't read het for many years, apart from Snowy's, and never would again except that she's my b/f so I do read hers. *g* There's an exoticism about slash that I find irresistible. I can't do that, being penis-free.

I started with Spuffy and still have no problem with it, but once I found slash, there was no looking back. I don't know how to describe it, except that I love the boys together, whether it be Spander or McShep, and I'll never go back to het. Het is my life, and very nice it is, but I want something different when I read. I know there are several gay and bi women on my flist, and on yours, who will have different reasons but, hey, variety is the spice of life. *hugs*

Bless, Snowy's heart. I think without her there wouldn't even be a discussion. Glad you dropped by to contribute and share your thoughts.

A particular kink is men who are not gay having sex together
Looks like you've come to the right fandom then! For everyone's squabbling over whether Spike and Angel actually boinked in canon, it's safe to say that the show portrayed them as generally leading heterosexual lifestyles and sleeping and engaging in intimate relationships with women. They're def not gay men, but it takes no convincing on my part to see that they did have an intense relationship and they probably did carry on together at some point in the time they've known each other.

Hey there,

playfuldancer told me about your queery (HA! snort!) and thought I might be interested in thinking about it. I write slash, apparently, and I also write Spuffy... but really I like to write about sex and for some reason the male characters end up being bisexual. I am thinking this is, for me, because I not only like boys but perhaps wouldn't mind being sandwiched between two of them (talk about elements of fantasy fulfillment!)

I myself am a married hetero female married to a hetero man, but was once married to a gay man (bit of a surprise to me at the time). The part where he liked men made total sense to me. I wrote slash/bisexual erotica before he told me. Sex is normal to me, and I write about it all. However, I don't actually read a lot of any genre or category... and I have to agree with the above mentioned "magical vagina" scenario - not my thing, and while I like sparkly romance in my own fic - I just don't read it at all. I think it irks me on a personal level that I can't quite explain. Perhaps this is the reason for others' aversion to spuffyness - perhaps it makes us too melancholy in some way.

Reading and writing about sex can be so deeply personal - It IS taboo to even think about it and part of the appeal is breaking the taboo. This could be the other reason for anti Spuff stuff.

For me I like putting the beautiful boys AND girls (though I do prefer the boys) through plenty of pain and rewarding them with huge dives into emotion for going through the thing with me. I like seeing them evolve through suffering and sensuality and sexuality... makes them almost perfect men in the end, doesn't it?

Now THERE"S something to think about.

I have no idea how to make het slash friendly! Maybe the role reversal thing that has been touched on thus far. Dunno.

Thanks for the inquiry. Hope I wasn't too verbose.

Hi there! Thanks for stopping by and throwing in your two cents. I always see your pretty sketches on nekid_spike, but we've never really "talked."

As you mention, Spuffy does seem to lend itself to soppy romance. Tell you the truth, i've never read any of that. I like my angst just fine, I don't want it to be easy, and happily ever afters are over-rated. Give me gritty, hard Spuffy any day =)

It IS taboo to even think about it and part of the appeal is breaking the taboo.
You've hit on something that Ash also mentioned - that slash seems to lend itself more to kink. I came into this fandom as a kink writer, and while I've expanded my repertoire into the non NC-17 variety, I still do love putting out a good, filthy fic. Why aren't we getting more rimming, fisting, BDSM het fics? I've no clue, cause goddamnit, I like those and would love to know where they're hiding. Perhaps a follow up post on het and kink is in store?

I like seeing them evolve through suffering and sensuality and sexuality...
Wow... I don't think I've ever seen another writer express a preference for my very same philosophy when it comes to fic writing. Hm, you and I might have more in common than meet the eye. Will have to snoop around your fics, in addition to the art. Is it just slash or do you have a bit of het too?

Hi, coming very late to this discussion and at totally the wrong time, because I can't currently read it.

But I will come back, both to this post and your one about kink when I have the chance.

Very interesting.

It's never too late! I'd like to keep this thing alive for as long as people have something to say. That's the best thing about inviting meta discussion.

And I'm looking forward to your opinion. When I posted these I figured you might have something interesting to say as a kink writer of slash (and sometimes het). And def read the discussion. There were some very insightful things mentioned. I was way impressed.

I think I'm known as being a Spangel girl... and that's it, I really am a Spangel girl, not a "slasher". I read, manip and occasionally write them because, together, they fascinate me -because of their history, because of the chemistry I think they have together, etc.

Which means that there are a lot of male-slash fiction that I don't read because I don't care about the characters involved. With the notable exception of some authors that I will read, whatever pairing or character they're writing about, because I like their style and their insight. For example, I don't like (or don't dislike) Spike/Riley as such, but I absolutely adore trepkos's series.

I really don't feel like being vehemently against het, but that's true, I don't like Spuffy -or at least I don't like Spuffy if it looks like "regular" Spuffy, since I was totally put off by what the writers on the show wanted to do with their 'relationship'. I love spikeslovebite's spuffy because she has a sense of humour I love and I still re-read some old Spuffy like "Taste of Juliet" or "A penny for your thoughts". Reading new Spuffy is kind of a problem since I only get 24h a day and there's much Spangel running around ;)

I think I'm known as being a Spangel girl... and that's it, I really am a Spangel girl, not a "slasher".
Interesting. I've got shapinglight saying that she's not a slasher because she's all about Spike, but you're the first to pull the OTP card on this thread. I'm actually surprised that more people haven't said they just are wild for one particular slash couple. So, then it's less about the "genre"/boy on boy sex, and more about that it's Spike and Angel for you?

some authors that I will read, whatever pairing or character
It's definately a special writer where everything they produce is gold. Although I read/write het most frequently, there are a few slashers that I will read anything from.

I was a lurky reader in the fandom for several years before I wrote anything and I exclusively read Spuffy. But when I found LJ and decided to write things myself, I quickly realized that it went beyond just the two of them for me and now I write a great many het pairings. I actually very rarely read Spuffy anymore unless it's by one of those not-to-be-missed authors. Het rare pairings have become my new staple diet. The evolution of one's 'shipping is a strange and variable one.

And, yes, spikeslovebite's fiction is quality. There aren't enough humor writers out there.

Thanks for swinging by and sharing your thoughts! this thread gave me a chance to chat with writers/readers/manippers that I don't often get a chance to interact with because I'm not producing the stuff they're interested in. It's sort of wonderful =)